Helga Davis: You wake up in the morning, and then what happens?

Alan Gilbert: [laughs]

Helga Davis: Oh, put your headphones on, Peter. Uh, uh, indeed. Oh, yeah. Come on, put your arms around.

Alan Gilbert: [laughs] I want to hug you and hug you and hug you some more, right through all these microphone cables.

Peter: Go ahead.

Helga Davis: I know I'm in the right time, in the right space. Do you feel that?

[music]

I'm Helga Davis.

[music]

Butch Morris used to always say risk, not chance. That's what he would tell us right before we did any kind of improvisation. He said, "Take risk, but this is not a chance happening." Somehow chance means that we're not taking responsibility for the musical decisions we're making. So, I think about risk a lot, and I was thinking about risk on the day that I hosted an event, uh, with Alan Gilbert. And I knew just from how we were together on stage, my conversation with him, that I really, really wanted him here, that I wanted to just sit across from him and talk all of the things that he was saying about music, about how music needs to be experimental.

I was listening to him talk about the things that he programmed for the orchestra. And the biggest thing that I-I took away from that was also his conversation about how music connects us, how it connects our lives, how it connects us to one another. And so, I took a risk that day and I asked him, "Will you just come and sit across from me and have a conversation?" And he said yes.

[music]

Yay.

Alan Gilbert: I'm sorry.

Helga Davis: No. That's okay.

Alan Gilbert: Glad to see you.

Helga Davis: Hi.

Alan Gilbert: How are you?

Helga Davis: So good to see you.

Alan Gilbert: Hi, [unintelligible 00:02:08]

Helga Davis: So, I came yesterday and I watched rehearsal.

Alan Gilbert: [laughs] Crazy stuff, huh?

Helga Davis: Crazy stuff. And here's what I thought was cool too. The Ligeti has so much groove.

Alan Gilbert: Yeah [laughs].

Helga Davis: There was a lot of groove in there.

Alan Gilbert: Yeah, absolutely.

Helga Davis: Even if- even if it's-

Alan Gilbert: Oh, it's rock and roll, yeah.

Helga Davis: [unintelligible 00:02:29]

Alan Gilbert: Oh yeah, totally

Helga Davis: Total groove.

Alan Gilbert: Absolutely.

Helga Davis: And then the Bartok is completely cinematic. And I was- I was laughing. I was sitting there and it's always dangerous when I sit and I have a piece of paper and a pencil, and I don't remember what section you were playing, but here's what I wrote down, "Her hand still warm from the sun reaches out and turns the knob. She glances back at the fading day, a gull or some such bird dipping down into the ocean, menaces the corner of her eye, the dead flapping fish dangling from its mouth. So, she didn't notice the still figure at the center of the room, eyes fixed, hungry, lost, and waiting for her to close the door behind her." [laughs]

Alan Gilbert: Okay.

Helga Davis: So yes, that says a whole-

Alan Gilbert: Let's talk about this.

Helga Davis: -whole lot more about me than it does about Bartok.

[laughter]

Alan Gilbert: Indeed. But let's go into this. I think it's time for a therapy session.

Helga Davis: I'm ready. I'm ready. Yep. You're on the couch though.

Alan Gilbert: That's true. We need to switch places here.

Helga Davis: So, that doesn't help. How are you doing?

Alan Gilbert: I'm-I'm very well. This has been an incredibly intense start to the season, three weeks with far more than three different programs to play. Um, and, of course, I'm keenly aware of the fact that it's my last season. So, I came in with the intention of enjoying every minute, but I haven't had to force the issue. It really is fun. And as I've been telling anybody who listens, uh, you know, we sometimes put our life into columns, you know, like the to-do column or the things I wish I could do or projects that I would like to accomplish, and I have a very big column in life- in my life that's the not-my-problem column.

And as I move on, of course, new things come up, but as far as many aspects of the job that have been really demanding and time-consuming, I'm able to put more and more of those things into that column. And, um, it's a transition for me. It's a transition-transition for the orchestra, but frankly, I'm having a blast.

Helga Davis: And he sits back and crosses his arms across his chest. Did it take you all these years to have fun?

Alan Gilbert: Well, no. From the beginning it was incredibly joyful. And you feel lucky if you're in a position like this to be able to-to work with such incredible musicians and to make decisions that affect the cultural landscape of New York City in a meaningful way, and it's an unbelievable position to be in. And if you had asked me 30 years ago, would I be in this position, I might have said, "Well, that would be nice, but I certainly wouldn't have expected it."

Helga Davis: Mm.

Alan Gilbert: And for-for any conductor and not just young conductors, any conductor at any stage of-of the career, even one week with the New York Philharmonic is a privilege. And the fact that I've been able to do week after week and just go through an incredible range of repertoire really has made it possible for me to enjoy, I think, one of the greatest aspects of the New York Philharmonic, and that-that is its range, the capacity they have to play Gershwin or Ligeti or Bernstein, as well as Bruckner or Bach or Mozart or Mussorgsky or-

Helga Davis: But that's you too-

Alan Gilbert: -Frank Zappa or-

Helga Davis: -isn't?

Alan Gilbert: -whatever. I mean, well, that's a little bit--

Helga Davis: It's you too.

Alan Gilbert: I guess in a way it-- I-I have to say it's been a good fit because I-I don't consider myself a specialist in this aspect of the repertoire that I feel very comfortable in virtually any-any area of the repertoire. And it's been fun to program without worrying about the limits of the orchestra or the range of my musical interests.

Helga Davis: And you have the support of your institution also, which makes a big difference too, yeah?

Alan Gilbert: Well, I think it's been a good working environment here. I think a lot has changed in-in the orchestra, in the organization. Um-

Helga Davis: Can you say one or two things you think?

Alan Gilbert: Well, just the-the-the openness to experimentation I think has always been there, but I think it's greater now. I think musicians have to be open to interacting with the world in fresh ways. It's not enough anymore simply to think, "Okay, well, this is the con-- kind of concert I play," and expect people to show up to listen to you. It's not only that we have to advocate for music itself, although that is important. I think we need to champion the cause as it were. We need to make sure that people refresh their sense that music is for everybody, and it's not only possible to appreciate it if you're among a kind of elite chosen few.

Nothing makes me more, um, sad to he-- than to hear somebody say, "Oh, I, you know- I, you know, I'd be interested to go hear the New York Philharmonic play, but I-I don't have a tuxedo." You actually hear people say that, or-or-or, "No. I wouldn't know when to clap." There's this kind of idea that the protocol keeps some people out. Um, and we need to make sure that people realize that it's possible to appreciate what we do, all the music we play on many levels, even for a first-time listener. And there are always first-time listeners who are able to just get right into it and observe, oh, well, they have- they're all wearing the same uniform, or-or, uh, there's, uh, I guess you don't clap between movements or, you know, it's okay to clap between movements or whatever.

Um, but beyond that, I think the way orchestras serve their communities, um, and can actually be a kind of focal point in the community to bring people together, and I mean, different institutions, different cultural institutions, different educational institutions, have the musicians go out of the traditional concert hall setting, go into the community. I mean, these-these things have been going on for a number of years.

And we could talk about the history of orchestras, but I think we're in the next phase, the kind of happy next phase in which it's not something that orchestras are trying to do in order to figure out what they are, or in order to get kind of grant money that's based on multicultural initiatives. I think actually orchestras have changed and now fundamentally that kind of outreach and connecting with the community in new ways is part of what orchestras are and must be in the 21st century.

Helga Davis: When I hear you say orchestras serving their communities, it's such a big word, I feel, community, and that everybody's using that word community. They're talking about whatever community they're talking about. Tell me what you mean by it.

Alan Gilbert: I'd love to step back and actually take an even bigger look at that idea, because for me, the word that's as important as community is serving. I think it's-it's, um-- It has been possible, shall we say, for orchestras to, as if exist in their ivory tower, do what they do and just as I said earlier expect people to show up and come share what they do with them. I think that if you turn that around and think of going out into the wider community, um, that is a nicer way to think about it, first of all, um, more resonant, and also I think it's more realistic. We have to sort of be available to give to the community in ways that actually connects with what they need. Uh, it's not enough simply to continue doing what we've always done. That's not to say we will stop doing what we've always done.

Helga Davis: Of course.

Alan Gilbert: Um, orchestras, I think, should always think of playing live concerts for an audience in a room. And there's the possibility of a shared experience with everybody breathing the same air and sensing the same atmosphere as each other. That is only possible in that way in a live experience in a- in one space, and that's magical and that's, you know, it's a- it's a winning formula. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not enough.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. And for you personally, what is community? Who-who is your community? Which community are you serving?

Alan Gilbert: I feel very lucky to have obviously my family and my friends, uh, around-around us. Um, but here at the Philharmonic, for example, I very consciously tried to create a team that is able to deliver so much more than any one of us could alone. There's this kind of exponential, um, echo that is created when you have artists in residence, composer in residence, um, people who are advising on contact to the Contemporary Music Festival, the committee within the orchestra, the artistic administration team, um, colleagues at other orchestras that we speak to, to see how they're approaching certain problems.

There used to be, um, a much more obvious wall around the planning at not only the New York Philharmonic, I think, many orchestras and that can work if, um, you know, if you don't have to come up with any new ideas, but as soon as you want to rethink the way you, who you are as an organization, as an institution, um, there has to be an openness to connecting with-with other-other bodies and entities around-around the city. Um, there was very little until not long ago that actually made the concept of Lincoln Center really meaningful. The idea when it was foreign back in the '60s or whatever, it was-it was to have a cultural center where all the institutions would feed off each other and create this amazing artistic resonance.

And I think it's fair to say that for a lot of its existence, Lincoln Center was just a place. It was just a geographical spot where there were a bunch of buildings that really aggressively avoided communicating with each other. Um, and that's something that I've been working on both for-for myself personally. I teach at Juilliard and I've tried to make a very strong bridge, um, you know, kind of musical bridge across the street and there have always been New York Philharmonics musicians teaching at Juilliard, but now I've really tried to bring the Julliard students across the street, so they're around.

It was amazing. For years, you know, when I was a student, Juilliard students basically didn't know what the New York Philharmonic was doing. It was almost a point of honor to avoid any kind of, uh, chance that you might be able to get something, any-any, uh, contact with what was-was going on. And, um, and that, that's just absurd because the New York Philharmonic can be an incredible resource, uh, for students around the city. And I've-I've just issued a blanket open-call invitation to any music student who wants to come to rehearsals. And I'm still amazed how few come, but more now than-than before and my conducting students are able to get an enormous amount simply from showing up and seeing what happens at rehearsals and-and concerts, of course.

And I always tell them, don't only show up when Ricardo Muti's in town or-or Bernard Haitink, you know, the big superstars, because they have something, an edge over the orchestra that brings out something that you can't really imitate. You have to earn over the years. Go look at the unknown conductor who may be struggling with the orchestra. That's where you can learn something cause what's going on day after day is-is, um, is amazing.

I mean, you can find a student orchestra that on one occasion might play a really great concert as good as a professional orchestra, but the fact that the Philharmonic is able to do it week after week after week after week with a different program each time and-and have this constant production level is just astonishing. There's just something that it really, you have to be around it for an extended period of time to appreciate that particular strength of the New York Philharmonic.

Helga Davis: Tell me what the painting is behind you.

Alan Gilbert: This is, um, made by a very close friend of mine. His name is Mahmoud Hamadani, and he is an interesting guy. He was a career diplomat, actually worked, um, at the UN, uh, and travelled with Koffi Anan among others doing diplomatic missions in Afghanistan and all over. And he just chucked it all one day because he decided that he was an artist. And he does very interesting, um, kind of minimalist work.

Helga Davis: I'm interested in this idea of chucking it all one day. Does it- does it feel like that to you that you're doing that in some way?

Alan Gilbert: Well, yeah. I mean I-I've always been the kind of person who thinks, oh, I wish I could be a painter or, you know, I have a book that I want to write or, um, it'd be nice not to work at all and just be with my kids all the time. Um, I-I actually, I-I guess even more than usual, I've been able to think about what I want to do, and amazingly, a lot of what I want to do is in the area that I've been working in. And I guess that means that I'm doing what I love. Uh, but there's a lot of music that I would like to experience and conduct for the first time.

But, uh, one thing I really need to do is-is-is just take more time, uh, for myself because I, uh, I've, you know, I've been on this kind of constantly moving, um, machine that doesn't slow down, uh, for a number of years now and it's great and it's exciting. It's a, you know, it's a thrilling way to live. But I do notice in the moments when I've- the few rare moments when I've been able to slow down and step away from the real world of music that when I come back I have a kind of a freshness that-that I-I think would be nice to have, um, all the time.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm. You know, I watched one of those interviews that you did and you talked about. You used the words gesture, physical presence, aura, and then my favorite one was letting go together. And you talked also about how you have to, when you turn the page, have a reaction or a point of view, or you feel not ready to give that downbeat, you feel that you've not worked hard enough or well enough on a score. And so much of-of the way you talk about the orchestra for me is also about talking about communities, is talking about families, is talking about everyday relationships with every person we come into contact with. Do you feel that way? Do you share that sentiment?

Alan Gilbert: Absolutely. Connecting an orchestra is constantly fascinating and in this kind of weird zen way, sometimes the way to exert the strongest control or have the strongest effect on an orchestra is to let go and step back and create a space that the orchestra has to fill up with its own initiative. It's this weird paradigm, um, that I'm no equestrian, but I understand that it's a little bit the same on a horse. If you're-- If you hold the reins too tightly, the horse can't really run and it's when you're able to let go in the right way that you allow the horse to fully express its horseness. And-- I enjoyed that word. Just, uh, just seemed like the right thing to say at the time. But it's- it is the same with orchestras.

And when I work with my students, it's kind of, it's funny because it's so striking and it's so hard for them to do it at times. I mean, I love my students. They're all talented and wonderful, uh, each in his or her own way, but-but when they're conducting with the orchestra, sometimes what I'll do is I'll go and I'll hold their hand while they're conducting and I just say, keep going. And they keep conducting and what I do is I force them to relax and stop conducting. And suddenly the orchestra coalesces and starts to play with much more energy and life. And the orchestra always finds that amusing because as soon as they stop conducting, everything starts to go just right.

And what I- what I tell my students, and this is a very hard thing to-to accomplish, uh, for anybody, um, but I say, "You have to set something in motion that is so inevitable that it goes that way and you don't have to continue to do anything in order for it to go that way, because that's the only possible way it could go. And then you just follow." But what you're doing is you're following something that you created. So you've set it in motion and it's exactly what you want, but you don't have to look as if you're making it happen as it happens. And that is an interesting, kind of easy-to-grasp concept, theoretically. To do it is another thing.

Helga Davis: What do You think it is in the human that makes us feel like we have to do something?

Alan Gilbert: Well, that's-

Helga Davis: That's it, right?

Alan Gilbert: -that's-that's-

Helga Davis: The human. [laughs]

Alan Gilbert: -that's the question. Yeah.

Helga Davis: [laughs]

Alan Gilbert: No, but it's, um, you know, there-- What-what happens then is if-if you-- You mentioned the word aura. I don't remember how I used it or in-in that- in that instance, but-

Helga Davis: That you were- you were looking or reading the aura of the orchestra.

Alan Gilbert: It's-it's about the-the exchange of energy-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Alan Gilbert: -and there's this kind of inexplicable bond between a conductor and an orchestra. And if it's healthy, it actually does finally become impossible to say who's leading, because everybody's using full energy and impulse and-and-and initiative, but it's also all pointing in the same direction. Um, and that's a beautiful thing when it happens. It doesn't happen all the time, doesn't happen every night, it doesn't even happen necessarily, it doesn't even happen in-in-in an entire concert. But there are moments that you live for in which it's as if the music takes over and everyone's able to give everything and fit together at- all at the same time. That's what we live for.

Helga Davis: I was definitely watching that happen yesterday in the room as I was sitting and watching. And, um, one of the security guards said to me, "Oh, I thought you were here to perform." And I said, "No, but I'm listening." And I felt very much that that was a thing, right? That I was also participating by listening, by paying attention. That I was part of that energy, that I was part of-of the music making, uh, and that my role was active. It wa--

Alan Gilbert: That's-that's what you look for in an audience. Uh, orchestras or musicians play better when there's an audience because there is a new ingredient in the mix. And it's-it's-it's one of those weird things. You can feel it when an audience is with you and is so engaged in what you're doing, that actually they end up giving energy to what you're doing.

One of the things I tell my students is that, "Obviously, you're so concerned with what's in front of you, the orchestra's in front of you when you're standing with your back to the audience, but you also have to have receptors going out backwards so that both you're able to take in energy from the audience, but also fill the whole room, including to your back with your presence." Or if I can dare use the word aura.

Helga Davis: The other thing that I really appreciated from, you know, whatever it was I was watching, um, you talked about wanting to conduct performances that were out of the box in order to make a bigger box. And this-this thing for me feels really important. I feel that part of-of, uh, why I am inspired to have these conversations with creative people is about making a bigger box that people, or a different kind of container even, that everyone can see themselves in. And that the orchestra, like the conductor, like the author, like the musician, isn't a mythical other, but that that is also a human and a person who is trying to con-- to make contact and to connect.

And that part of-of that doing means expanding, means making another place at the table for someone who may not, uh, share the world that you are in all the time. But I do really, really, really appreciate and appreciated yesterday feeling the way in which even that music, the-the Bartok, and the Ligeti, maybe those are not easy in "pieces for people to listen to", but somehow, I felt invited into a conversation. I felt invited to a table that isn't necessarily mine, um, without the need to-to rush back to what you also called the Bolero effect, right, and to apologize in any way for trying something new.

Alan Gilbert: I have nothing against Bolero, but that's the way I've described programs that seem to- you see some programs where there'll be a kind of nod in the direction of-of experimentation or novelty. It's as if the orchestra dips its toe into this kind of scary waters and, uh-

Helga Davis: Says, "We didn't mean that." [laughs]

Alan Gilbert: -"But-but, you know what? Don't worry about it. Everything's fine. We're still gonna end up, you know, the program with the tried and true and, you know, the hugely popular Bolero." Nothing against Bolero-

Helga Davis: I know.

Alan Gilbert: -but it's actually-- that's my- that's my-

Helga Davis: I get it.

Alan Gilbert: -iconic piece that-that I use to describe that phenomenon. And the problem is that, okay, it's okay to-to end programs with popular pieces. Sometimes that's the best way to-to create a program that-that-that makes sense, but if the message is subconsciously, or even frankly, consciously that-that, you know, the spoonful of sugar is needed to-to make this bitter pill go down, then, you know, what are we telling people-

Helga Davis: Right.

Alan Gilbert: -uh, about-about what we do? What-what do- what do we actually believe in? And the idea that-- I mean, repertoire is one way that I think there should be a bigger box around, uh, around orchestras. Pe-- You know, people should be willing to try things that they're not familiar with. Orchestras should play things that they- that they, um, they haven't played before. Uh, but also just the way we interact with-with the audience. Speaking at concerts, uh, making that connection sort of demystifying or taking away this kind of mythological, un-untouchable image that-that musicians have.

Of course, there should be something ritualistic and formal about a concert, and it's nice for people to dress up because it's special and there's a kind of uniform that means that, "Okay, this is we're here to serve this function." That's-that's okay, although it's also possible to have concerts at which the orchestra does not dress up, or concerts at which the orchestra doesn't even sit on the stage, or-or concerts at which there are combinations of-of genres. You can have a jazz combo playing. You could have someone reading a poem. I mean, there are a lot of ways that you can go out of the box. And my point is that rather than feeling that when we do these things, that it is out of the box, think of a bigger box in which more is possible.

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Alan Gilbert: That's why I use that expression. And I think that that's hard to do. I, you know, orchestras or, not just orchestras, people.

Helga Davis: People [crosstalk], right?

Alan Gilbert: There's a tendency to revert to type-

Helga Davis: Yeah.

Alan Gilbert: -and-and take the, uh, the-the, um-- It is the easy way. Um, it's hard to blaze in trails.

Helga Davis: But how do you keep- how do you keep encouraging people to not take an easy way? I mean, now you can go on television, right? You can go on one of those shows and you can be a star in six weeks or eight weeks, or-- Why-- Yeah. How do you encourage people to not do it in an easy way?

Alan Gilbert: I think you have to live it yourself. Um, you have to be willing to take risks yourself. It's-it's not enough just to tell people, okay, that you should be trying this. You act-- you actually yourself have to embody that sense of-of embracing the new and taking risks. Um, I sometimes think that I might have been better served over the years here at the Philharmonic if I had thrown more tantrums and-and showed my stress more because, you know, I-I say it myself now, but there hasn't been a lot of obvious struggle. And I think what we've accomplished actually over the years has been pretty remarkable. We've changed more than I think a lot of people ever expected would've been possible.

And I hate to say it, but I think that there's some people who actually missed the fact that certain changes have happened because it hasn't been- there hasn't been an obvious explosion or a kind of, um, I don't know, obvious discontinuity. And part of that was that I think I was pretty strategic about it. I thought we would take it one step at a time. You know, for example, we- in my first year we did Ligeti Le Grand Macabre, the piece on which the, uh, trumpet solo Mysteries of the Macabre we're playing this week is based. And in that, the orchestra had to do some extra-musical things like, um, crumple up pieces of paper and throw them at me.

And I thought that was a really good place to start because I knew that if there's something that orchestra musicians would be happy to do, it's throw something at the conductor. Um, and so they did that, but that was just the first step. In-in later productions, we asked them to do more, to actually move around and take a different chair during-during a performance. And, finally, In the Dancer's Dream production, we did Igor Stravinsky's Petrushka.

There was one passage of music that we asked the musicians to memorize, and they actually stood up and played by heart dancing around the stage. And it wasn't just me. There were people who saw that for the first time and it brought tears to their eyes, not because of what was happening, but the fact that these New York Philharmonic musicians were doing something that was so unexpected and that they were willing to go there. But it was something that we had-had to build up to. And if I had asked them in my first year to do that, they wouldn't have done it.

Helga Davis: Right.

Alan Gilbert: They would've said, "No, we don't do that. We're the New York Philharmonic."

Helga Davis: Right.

Alan Gilbert: Now, they say, "Of course, we do that. We're the New York Philharmonic."

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Alan Gilbert: And that's a big change, which I'm very proud of.

Helga Davis: Last thing. I know it's almost time, but I wanna ask you if there's something that you would like to ask a creative person. It's a very big kind of broad question. I haven't quite formulated the what--

Alan Gilbert: Well, it's a good question, um, uh, in its vagueness. Um, what really fascinates me is how people prepare, how they do their work. And frankly, I don't like to reveal how I work, um, because I don't think it's anyone's business really. I try to tell my students more or less how I- how I study, but not how I actually study. I kind of-- I dunno if it's that I wanna preserve this kind of mystical sense that everything just appears fully formed without any struggle.

Um, but maybe it's because I-I don't like to talk about it that it makes me curious about how other people do their work. Uh, and I wonder when people study if they have a-a regular time of day that they study. That's something I don't do. It's not as if I wake up and do an hour before work or study for an hour before I go- before I go to bed. Um, maybe I should, but it's more catch-as-catch-can for me. Uh, but I'm always curious what other creative people if they have creative moments or if-if they wait for inspiration to strike, or if they just slog it out each day. Um, I guess that's what I'm-

Helga Davis: Mm-hmm.

Alan Gilbert: -interested in.

Helga Davis: Okay.

Alan Gilbert: Just the actual practical work that it takes to be creative.

[music]

Helga Davis: Thank you, sir.

Alan Gilbert: Pleasure, as always.

Helga Davis: It's so great to speak with Alan Gilbert. It's so good to sit in that rehearsal and hear that orchestra and to hear all of the ways in which he inspires and is inspired by the people under-under his baton, and in his presence. What did we talk about that resonated with you? Was there anything that inspired you? Anything that perhaps will make you see something differently? I'd like to know. You can email me at helga@wqxr.org or follow me on Facebook.

Voiceover: This episode of Helga was produced by Julia Alsop and executive producer Alex Ambrose with help from Curtis McDonald and original music by Alex Overington. Special thanks to Cindy Kim, Lorraine Maddox, Michael [unintelligible 00:34:40], Jacqueline [unintelligible 00:34:41], and John Chow.

 

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